Short selling faroff options!

rajsumi121

Well-Known Member
#11
suggestion - if we sell 300 points otm call + put ... supose nifty at 5000 ..and we are seller of 5300 call and 4700 put to recieve premium ........ we can do one thing ..if nifty close above 5200 then exit from 5300 call selling and sell 5400 call ...same with put if nifty close below 4800 then exit from 4700 and sell 4600 .
 
#12
About a quarter back a friend suggested me this technique. He had a very simple technique regarding earning small amount of money out of options. This is what he does...

Say Nifty is at 5000 in the current month, he would short sell 4400 PE and 5600 CE of the next month and wait till the expiry (mostly). According to him due to the time decay factor both these call/put would eventually loose value and hence earn you some money without much risk. He says he is doing it since about a year now with moderate profits.

What are your expert views on this technique? I am a newbie to option trading so can't make up my mind regarding this.
I completely agree that this is one of the best strategies and chances of sucessful is far better, but if your time is bad and caught on the wrong it will result in huge loss.
I don`t think this strategy is worth compared with the risk associated.
Preserving Capital is more important than capital appreciation
 

bandlab2

Well-Known Member
#13
Prasham
There are many people who follow such techniques. To take your example and work out the math:
5600CE is at 12.30 and 4400 PE is at 15.20 while the Nifty is at 5080. If you sell one lot each you get to pocket a gross of 1375/-. If you need to block cash you need at least 50000/- to sell these options. You can also sell them against your long term portfolio which means you are using your existing portfolio more efficiently. Assuming you hold it for a month that is a return of 2.75% per month or an annualized 33%. That is a fantastic return compared to the bank rate.

Next is to understand the risk involved. As long as the Nifty stays between the strike prices you are completely safe. In the event it moves out of that range then your losses can begin. But smart option writers know how to handle such a scenario. In ten out of twelve months, Nifty does expire between such wide ranges giving you a good probability of making a decent returns.

In my view, a trader has to have a basket of products in his trading portfolio. One would be a income generation product like this which gives you regular income to meet some of the bills. A certain portion towards long term investments. And another portion alloted to higher risk higher reward products like trading in NF or different options strategy.

Don't for a moment believe the trash that option seller make small money but take unlimited risk. If anything I believe it is the naked option buyer who takes unlimited risk as there is a good chance that he will lose his entire investment in the premium.

TT,

few points from my side

1. option selling (deep) is like collecting peanuts infront of a road roller. this is not a buy-n-forget strategy.

2. if you consider brokerage, the net profit would be around 1000 rs. they charge 100rs for each transaction.

3. money management is a tough task here. even though you need only 1 lot nifty money to wtite one leg, you need some kind of m2m money in the account, else your broker will auto-square off your option if it moves opposite direction by 'x' amount. because broker wont sit idle watching the position go completely out of your direction and you are sitting on huge loss and there is not enough money in the account.

4. even though nifty may expire within the range, what happens during the 60 days window is anybodys guess. some times even a 100 point opening gap up may result in some good points loss (even though its covered by other side option), and yr broker may square off that leg. you need to have some kind of stoploss for yourself. you cant keep watching it go up and up and finally auto-squared off. as usual any trade should have a stoloss however small/large it is. else your account will be blown out in no time

5. collecting 20 nifty points in 60 days... i guess there are other good strategies documeneted in this forum. i am not saying other methods will GUARANTEE you 20 points in 60 days, but over a period of 1-2 years , they will beat this number and most importantly u dont need a huge capital nor receive phone calls from broker. i completely disagree with the statement that we need a income generator in the product-mix. end of the day its same rupee however you get it. i have seen some ppl who follow just one method through out their career and earn money.

6. personally i would prefer covered call writing over this. its only direction, so your risk is halved. and then when it moves up, your stock also goes up !! yes, you can miss out some big moves and lose money because of that. in such case you need to keep rolling up your calls. you can do same thing in this strategy too
 
#14
TT,

few points from my side

1. option selling (deep) is like collecting peanuts infront of a road roller. this is not a buy-n-forget strategy.

2. if you consider brokerage, the net profit would be around 1000 rs. they charge 100rs for each transaction.

3. money management is a tough task here. even though you need only 1 lot nifty money to wtite one leg, you need some kind of m2m money in the account, else your broker will auto-square off your option if it moves opposite direction by 'x' amount. because broker wont sit idle watching the position go completely out of your direction and you are sitting on huge loss and there is not enough money in the account.

4. even though nifty may expire within the range, what happens during the 60 days window is anybodys guess. some times even a 100 point opening gap up may result in some good points loss (even though its covered by other side option), and yr broker may square off that leg. you need to have some kind of stoploss for yourself. you cant keep watching it go up and up and finally auto-squared off. as usual any trade should have a stoloss however small/large it is. else your account will be blown out in no time

5. collecting 20 nifty points in 60 days... i guess there are other good strategies documeneted in this forum. i am not saying other methods will GUARANTEE you 20 points in 60 days, but over a period of 1-2 years , they will beat this number and most importantly u dont need a huge capital nor receive phone calls from broker. i completely disagree with the statement that we need a income generator in the product-mix. end of the day its same rupee however you get it. i have seen some ppl who follow just one method through out their career and earn money.

6. personally i would prefer covered call writing over this. its only direction, so your risk is halved. and then when it moves up, your stock also goes up !! yes, you can miss out some big moves and lose money because of that. in such case you need to keep rolling up your calls. you can do same thing in this strategy too
U r right:thumb:
 

trader.trends

Well-Known Member
#15
TT,

few points from my side

1. option selling (deep) is like collecting peanuts infront of a road roller. this is not a buy-n-forget strategy.

2. if you consider brokerage, the net profit would be around 1000 rs. they charge 100rs for each transaction.

3. money management is a tough task here. even though you need only 1 lot nifty money to wtite one leg, you need some kind of m2m money in the account, else your broker will auto-square off your option if it moves opposite direction by 'x' amount. because broker wont sit idle watching the position go completely out of your direction and you are sitting on huge loss and there is not enough money in the account.

4. even though nifty may expire within the range, what happens during the 60 days window is anybodys guess. some times even a 100 point opening gap up may result in some good points loss (even though its covered by other side option), and yr broker may square off that leg. you need to have some kind of stoploss for yourself. you cant keep watching it go up and up and finally auto-squared off. as usual any trade should have a stoloss however small/large it is. else your account will be blown out in no time

5. collecting 20 nifty points in 60 days... i guess there are other good strategies documeneted in this forum. i am not saying other methods will GUARANTEE you 20 points in 60 days, but over a period of 1-2 years , they will beat this number and most importantly u dont need a huge capital nor receive phone calls from broker. i completely disagree with the statement that we need a income generator in the product-mix. end of the day its same rupee however you get it. i have seen some ppl who follow just one method through out their career and earn money.

6. personally i would prefer covered call writing over this. its only direction, so your risk is halved. and then when it moves up, your stock also goes up !! yes, you can miss out some big moves and lose money because of that. in such case you need to keep rolling up your calls. you can do same thing in this strategy too
Bandlab

Your concerns are valid. Let me address them with what I know.

Option writing is a dynamic activity. Option writers don't write and wait till expiry to count their profits and losses. Seasoned option writers pick the time to write the options. Many second month options do get written on the expiry of the current month options.

For example, the options of April that I have taken as an example were quoted at the following rates:
4400PE: 70/- and 5600CE at 10/- on 25 February the day the Feb options expired. That gives you a total of 80/-. Today they are valid at around 27/-. When you have extracted the maximum (60% or more) from it in 10-12 days you can always close the position and pocket the profit and use the margin to write the next options at an opportune moment.

In options writing, it is always difficult to write down the complete strategy in the beginning. A seasoned options writer knows when it is time to book out.

Coming to stop loss, unlike in equity, the method to prevent losses in options are much varied. It will not be a straight number. Time is on the side of the option writer. Sometimes time is used as a SL. Other times, covering with NF, converting it into a spread, closing the profit leg and opening another one on the same side with better premium (buy back the 4400Pe and short 4600PE as the mkt moves up) are some things I can think of.

Yes you certainly need cash for MTM. You have to provision for this when writing options. But like I mentioned earlier you can use your idle portfolio for the margin. You don't need to plonk 50K cash for margin. It is a way to generate income on portfolio.

Covered call is good if you already own the stock and don't expect the underlying to move too much. But covered call using the NF as the underlying has its own share of risk.

As far having an income generator in the product mix, each of us have to take a call on that. For me income generation in some of the accounts where I cannot devote much time (my parents' account for example) to it is a good idea. If I can post even a 3% return in that account for the time devoted to it, it puts a smile on some faces.:):)
 

prasham

Active Member
#16
Well I have made you misunderstand the actual question. Sorry for it but then you guys have suggested me a new technique.

Actually my friend doesn't short sell both Call & Put at the same time. He does it one at a time. Say if the finds that a 5600CE is having good price the may short sell it and then wait for the next opportunity. He is not hedging or similar by selling both far off Call & Put.

But what you (T.T. and others) have suggested is also a good plan. Thanks for the prompt help to all the guys.
 

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